Savage 219 and 220 Single Shot Rifles & Shotguns
Savage Single Shot Firearms => Hi! My Name is... => Topic started by: bob on October 14, 2015, 02:59:30 PM
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hello,my name is bob.this really a good site&i'm glad I came across it. at a recent gun show icame across a 219 with 2 barrels&2 forends ,a 30-30 barrel marked 219 &a 12ga.marked 220.both have the UTICA NY stamp&they are in ex.cond-it really looks like both have never been fired.the receiver has no markings on either side,on the bottom is a real nice engraving of 3 ducks flying over cattails.the receiver is a deep purple plum color-just beautiful.can you guys give me more info. on the receiver-this 2 gun set looks almost too nice to take in the woods. thankyou from PA.
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Bob, welcome to this forum! My first question is....did you buy it? If you did, will you please share pictures with us? It sounds like you have what was referred to by Savage, as a "Utility" gun. These had one rifle and one shotgun barrel with forearms for each barrel. To be sure they are a matching set, look under both barrels in front of the barrel lug at the letters/numbers. If both barrels have the same (or almost the same) that is a good indication it came together as a set. Remove the barrel from the receiver and look on the top of the left inside for similar numbers. Finally, remove the butt place and see if similar numbers are stamped into the wood under the plate. All 4 places should be very similar. There is no record as to why the receivers were acid etched with game scenes. Normally the scenes are either on both sides or the bottom, but not all 3 places. The purple plum color is an indication that the receiver (at least, but maybe the entire gun) has been re-blued and left in the bluing solution too long and it turned purple. The Utility guns were assigned separate Model Numbers according to caliber/gauge and barrel length. I am away from home for 10 days or so. If you will advise me of the barrel length of the shotgun barrel, when I am home and can look it up in my research records, I will advise you the exact model number. I hope this helps some. Best wishes, Garnett
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hello garnett,thank you for getting back.i traded even ,my Mossberg US44(b) .22 with a Mossberg 4x scope for this fine savage.i have another Mossberg exactly like i traded,so I still have one.i've been look'in for a 219 for a while.like you said,if it has been reblued,they did a good job-I really like the deep purple.any how I have the letters for you,1st the rifle barrel-26"L inside forend marked 5.on barrel V5G then a D below those.top of barrel marked MODEL 219 savage arms corp. Utica,new York.shotgun barrel is 30"L, 2 3/4"shells,inside forend marked 3 0.barrel is marked K-above 30JD.top of barrel marked MODEL 220 savage arms corp. Utica,new York inside the receiver marked LL.after the 2 L's are 2 symbols that look like fish-I can't really make out what they are.well I guess by the #'s&letters this is not a matched set,but it is one fine look'in rifle&shotgun&i am very pleased with it.i shot my 1st deer in 65 with my dad's 30-30 savage 340 that he bought in 51,the 340 has been mine for many yrs. now.i will be out with this fine single shot the 1st day of PA. deer season.i would like to send you pics so you can give me your opinon on this set.if you have a cell phone,i can send you pics from my wifes cell phone.if not I will have to figure out how to post them on here.one more thing the trigger is thin&trigger guard is a gray metal color. thank you again sir&have agood day!! bob
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Bob, thanks for the info. When I get home I will give you the model number for your set. Thank you for this info. I am sorry, but I can't receive pictures on my cell phone. Please try to put on this site. I don't think the set matches because of the numbers you gave me. The 3 and 5 inside the forearm denote the size barrel that they will fit, I think. When I first started my research into these guns, I had thought the number inside the forearms stood for the style, i.e., slim, semi-bever tail, or bevertail, but the more I look, the more I am convinced these numbers are for the barrel size. If you have time, look under the "for sale" section of this forum and you can view some pictures of my book and what the contents are. As soon as I get home, I will send you the Model number for your set. Best wishes, Garnett
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Bob, a factory "Utility Gun" set in your configuration: 30-30 and 12 gauge with 30 inch barrel had the Model 221 designation. Each standard set had a different number depending on caliber and gauge and barrel length of the shotgun barrel. All rifle barrels were 26 inches. I hope this helps some.
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Thank you very much Garnett!!it does help.can you tell me,since both barrels have the UTICA, NEW YORK address,does this mean these where made before WW2&is there anyway to find out about the receiver being marked LL-when it was made?can I send pics to your email so you can post them?i would really like your opinion.you have been a big help.i am going to buy your book so I can learn more about fine set of firearms.i've been a big savage fan for many years.i also have 2 savage 342's in the hornet.a 24-VA in 222&20&my dads 340. let me know about the pics. thanks again!!
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Yes, please send the pictures to my email: garnettstancil@hotmail.com and I can get my son to post them on the forum. As well as I can determine, all Utica guns were made prior to WWII with the exception of a military contract for M220's in .22 SHOT caliber/gauge, made during the war. Supposedly, these guns were sold to the Army Air Corp to shoot birds inside aircraft hangers. These guns were made during the war. I have no idea what the "LL" on your receiver might mean, but I feel certain it is a prewar gun. All 3 of my "Utility" guns were made at Utica. Best wishes, Garnett
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Garnett,i sent some pics.hope you get them&their clear enough.please let me know.&what do you think of the combo? bob
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Rob, I have not gotten them. Did you send to my regular email?
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Bob, somehow the pictures were sent to my son. He forwarded to me. You took some good pictures. He has added the pictures to this web site. The gun should not have a recoil pad. What is the length of pull with the pad in place? Normal LOP is 14 inches with a plastic butt plate. I feel the receiver has been re blued due to the color. The acid etching is a plus. Being from Utica, with the slim trigger and alloy trigger guard, it is what I am calling a 2nd Model Utica gun. A first model would have the slim trigger and a steel, blued, gracefully curved and tapered at the rear trigger guard. Your guard has been polished bright. Originally is was painted gloss black. The bluing on the barrels looks really nice. You have the early milled rear sight which is much nicer than the later stamped sights, another plus. If i might suggest, have the recoil pad replaced with a solid black "Old English" style pad. These are available from Brownell. I have replaced 3 of the nonstandard recoil pads on my guns and they look much better. I have a picture of one in my book. Please understand that I would not add a recoil pad to an unaltered stock. Another thing to do, if the stock has not been cut/shortened, is to purchase an original butt plate off EBay and install it. It would be considerably lower priced than the Old English pad. Thank you for sharing your gun with us!
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Garnett,Thank you very much for taking the time to go thru all this with me.i really appreciate it!!the LOP is 14&5/8",so I do not think the stock has been shortened.i am going to look for a butt plate&get the pad off.i'll tell ya,if you could see the barrels in person,if they are reblued,whoever did it, really did a super job.personally I would never get any of my firearms reblued,they just mean too much to me the way they are.but you pointed out +'s&-'s to the gun &that is exactly what I wanted.now I know for sure what I have here.i am very happy with this trade I did.i mean I traded 1 firearm i had 2 of, for 2 firearms&it's a savage 219.i never knew these were made in sets with matching #'s.i will definetly keep that in mind when look'in for more 219's.i'm so glad you got the pics&please let your son know that I thank him for posting!if there's anything else you can point out to me,i would appreciate it.i am going to order your book in a few wks.will you take a P.O. money order?if so please send me your address & the cost with S&H. thank you again sir! bob
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Bob, I am glad I could help. A p.o. money order or your personal check is fine. Send to: Garnett Stancil, 340 County Road 232, Valley Grande, AL 36701. $30 for the book and $4.00 shipping for USPS Media rate, uninsured, or $6.10 USPS Priority rate, insured. Best wishes, Garnett
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The plum color comes from several sources, as near as I can find out. One is, as Garnett points out, the reaction of certain types of steel to certain "hot" bluing chemicals and temperatures. The most notorious example of this is the reaction of a big batch post-1964 Winchester Model 94 carbines to rebluing. Many came out a kind of reddish purple, that their owners didn't much like.
Another is a longer, slow reaction of the original bluing with air, and perhaps the underlying steel. The most common example of this in the US seems to be Ruger handguns with their investment cast steel components. Some batches of various parts, from frames to loading gates and ejector rod shrouds, slowly turn a deep purple "plum" color over time. There are even Ruger collectors and "accumulators" who search these "plum beautiful" guns out! (I have a couple, a Single Six .32 H&R Magnum and a GP-100 .357 made in 1988). Others think that's plum nuts!
This second phenomenon isn't unknown in foriegn arms, either. The receiver of my Finnish Valmet "Lion" 12 guage O/U shotgun made in the mid-1960s is slowly turning a soft brownish-purple. And I have a 1920s German J.P. Sauer break-open single shot rifle in 6.35x52R (That's a .25-35 WCF to us Gringos--it's basically a fancy 219!) that has plummed up everywhere except the barrel.
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Hello Mike, thank you for explaining this plum color even further.i never had any guns reblued,i never really looked into the process.i understand if the gun is all original you want to keep it that way.this is a firearm I got to be used.i always wanted a 219&when I seen this @ the gunshow,everybody was passing by it except me.to be honest,i never even thought about it being reblued.when I seen it, I knew what I was look'in at-with the 2 barrels&forends&receiver.i have a question about the firing pin.i've been reading on other sites about the 219,are there supposed to be 2 different firing pin sizes?1 for 30-30& another for 12 ga. any help will be appreciated!! thank you
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Bob, the only things I know about 219 and 220 firing pins are 1) they are a serious bitch to find and then replace if you break one, and 2) Dry firing (snapping on an empty chamber) will sooner or later break them. So don't. I get or make snap caps for all my barrels to prevent broken pins.
My .30-30 (late Utica vintage) fires both .30-30 and 20 guage shotgun shells just fine with the one firing pin. My early Utica .25-20 shoots .410 shells just fine, too. Don't currently have a .22 Hornet to see if the pin diameter is different, although that makes some sense.
Maybe somebody else can check theirs.
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It has always been accepted that the firing pins for the rifle and shotgun were different. I am doing some research on this now. I purchased a new striker (M219) and firing pin (starting with 219B) and both measure the same diameter. The striker and pin for the 220/220B is no longer available, so I am going to have my gunsmith remove these from my guns and measure them. As to the "Utility Gun" with both rifle and shot barrel......I am also going to have him remove those and measure them. But to answer your question, with different stock numbers, I think the shotgun striker/pin is larger than the rifle.
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Hello Garnett,just yesterday I found a 220 16ga. with an adjustable choke in very good cond.no etching on sides or bottom.could you give me any info. on the adjustable chokes-+ and -?it is all original-no reblueing ever,it's really in nice shape.the man is giving me 1st dibbs on it. any info. would be appreciated! thanks bob
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Bob, I have found 2 different types of chokes on these guns. One is a "Poly Choke, one is made by Savage. Both these are installed originally at the Savage factory with a recoil pad installed. Each is marked with one or the other name. If the gun you are looking at has a choke with anther name then I feel that most likely it is not an original Savage installation. The 3rd choke option could be either of the above, and could have been installed on a gun sent back to the factory after purchase. Most likely these won't have a recoil pad. I have in my collection all 3 examples listed above. There are so few of them found and I believe the reason was that the addition of a choke devise, cost 2/3's of the cost of the gun without a choke. If you have not already done so, see page 84 of my book for pictures of both chokes. If the cost is not prohibitive, I would buy it, as you seldom see them for sale. Please send a picture if you get it and have time. Best wishes, Garnett
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hello garnett,just to let you know,i did get the 16 ga.it has all matching letter's-no #'s at all!the choke is a factory installed POLYCHOKE with 6 different settings.my 219 30-30 barrels fits on it perfectly.the 12 ga. barrel also fits good.it has the recoil pad too.i will get pics to you soon,but I'm having trouble gett'in pics on here for some reason right now. could you tell me,on these early 219's &220's frames is there really any difference between the 2 other than the # 219 being stamped on the frame?are there any early 220's you have seen with just the #220 on it.i really don't see any difference. thanks bob
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Bob, there is no difference in the frames as far as outside appearance other than the "219" mark on the rifles. I have not found any shotguns with "220" at the same location as on rifles. Now, I have discovered some minor internal differences within the same Model numbers. Sounds like the new gun is a good one. Congratulations! If you are still having problems with the pictures, email them to me at :
garnettstancil@hotmail.com and I will get my son to post them. Best wishes, and Merry Christmas! garnett
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Bob, we got one picture this morning of an early action with alloy guard. Did you send more than one? It is a nice action. Is this your new 220 with the poly choke and recoil pad? Happy New Year! garnett
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The above pictures are of a M220 with a factory installed "Poly Choke" and recoil pad. It is an early Utica action with the alloy trigger guard. Bob says all assembly numbers match. This is a nice gun that is difficult to find. Thanks for sending the pictures!
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I appreciate your attitude toward these "less than perfect" guns! I'm a hunter, shooter, handloader, and student of guns and the idea of owning a gun and not shooting it is something I haven't ever fully understood, although I know lots of collectors who would NEVER shoot a pristine gun (My older brother is one....). If I have it, it gets shot.
So none of my guns are "pristine:" either I put some wear on them after I bought them new, or they weren't new when I bought them! Now I look specifically for examples that are just worn enough that I can shoot the heck out of them and drag them over hill and dale and not worry much about destroying some future collector's joy. And I can sometimes actually AFFORD these "experienced" guns, too!
Never really understood just "collecting," Savages in particular. They were ALL meant to be used, except for a very very few extra-fancy '99s! But we DO need a few "collectors" just to keep good examples around for the rest of us to learn from, one reason I appreciate Garnett's work and this forum.
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Mike, thanks for the kind words! I agree, guns were made to be shot. In my younger days, if I purchased a gun tonight, it would be shot before sundown tomorrow. Now days, the weather has to be perfect for me to do any shooting....not too hot, not too cool, no rain, etc. :-) The only one of my Savage 219's I have shot is the first .30-30 I got in the past few years that renewed my interest in them. I had thought I was the only collector of these two models, but have discovered there are a few others. You continue to shoot yours and I will show mine at gun shows to try to stir up some interest in them. That is one good thing about our gun collecting/shooting hobby, there is room for all of our opinions. Best wishes, Garnett
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Bob, I just today saw your question about firing pins. Yes, There were two different sizes of pins. One, smaller, for rifles and the larger one for shotguns. Numrich Arms has both listed in the early "striker" models and the later "Firing Pin" models. The are offered for both rifle and shotgun, but all are not in stock. This arrangement is OK as far as it goes. But what about your "Utility" gun (and all the others) that have both barrels? I have 3 "Utility" guns and the small pin is in one and the larger in two. So, if a pin works for both...what was the purpose of having two different sizes? There are so many questions unanswered about the guns and we may never know.