Savage 219 and 220 Single Shot Rifles & Shotguns
Savage Single Shot Firearms => Savage 219 Single Shot Rifles => Topic started by: MikeLeong on October 20, 2021, 06:30:16 PM
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Garnett, I got a new firing pin and spring from Numrich using the part numbers you provided, and had our local gunsmith do the install, The gun still misfires though, especially with factory ammo or loads using once fired brass from my Marlin 336. The gunsmith mentioned that headspace may the issue as he was able to close the gun using his gauge and I guess it should not do that? Another fellow who works with mechanical things of all kinds looked at it, and thought maybe the swivel pin that holds the barrel onto the receiver looked like it had a slight flat spot on the inside of it, possibly from opening and closing the gun a lot? Is that an issue that you or others have run into with the design of the 219, and wear and tear over time?
If that is a possible reason for the misfires, can I replace or fix that swivel pin?
When I do up loads that have been case formed in that rifle, they do work well if am careful to just neck size the brass, so the brass is a bit longer and probably accounts the bit of extra room.
The rifle is deadly accurate when the rounds fire, it just drives me crazy knowing it could just go click when you have that deer in your sights.....
Mike
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Mike, this is a mystery to me. I have not talked with anyone having a similar problem. As I have mentioned before, I am not a gun smith, but if your gunsmith can put a shim between the receiver and the barrel when the barrel is closed, that does sound like excessive headspace to me, especially since your fired brass from that gun, when only neck sized, seems to work OK. Also, I would think if there is a "flat" on the hinge pin, depending on the location, that could affect the head space. The pin can be removed. With the rear of the action toward you, the pin has serrations on the left side. I would suggest removing it from right to left so the serrated side comes out first. Just a suggestion. I have never removed one before. I don't know if Numrich has one or not. There was one on Ebay a few days ago. If you can't find one, email me at garnettstancil@hotmail.com
I will try to talk with my gunsmith/machinist about your problem tomorrow, and get back with you. Click on pictures to make larger.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sn20Lxw3/Savage-219-Hinge-Pin-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Sn20Lxw3)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zy9sx1NB/Savage-hinge-pin-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zy9sx1NB)
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Garnett
I saw the info on that pin in your book. If there is a bit of a 'flat' on the inside I am guessing a gunsmith could pull the pin and put it back in turned half way around so the flat worn area is on the other side. Numrich does not seem to list that part, but if there is one onEbay I will try and look for it.
Thanks as always for your advice!
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Please keep us informed as to whether or not this fixes your problem.
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Mike, Have you verified that the barrel actually came on the action? That could be the reason for the head space and misfires. Have you compared the assembly numbers on the barrel and the frame? Just a thought.
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The numbers do match on the barrel and receiver, but that was a good thought.
I was able to pop out the pin the barrel swivels on, by the way, so I turned it 180 degrees and pressed it back in, and then went out to the range with some reloads from my Marlin that were not case formed to this gun. They fired off fine until the sixth round which misfired. I broke open the action, closed it and refired with the same round, and it did go off, which was not happening earlier this summer with other misfired rounds.
Turning that pin did not make a big difference so I suspect the wear marks on inside of it were not causing a flat spot, but it was fun actually playing with that idea, and seeing how I could get that pin out, and back in. I used a Robertson #2 bit upside down so the rounded end that goes in the drill was against the smooth side of the pin and tapped that with a hammer and saw the pin start to move out on the serrated side. I could tap a bit harder once I had the hole to hold the Robertson bit from moving off the pin. Putting that pin back is actually the harder part, as you are working on the raised serrated side. I finally went to my friends shop and he used his press to slowly move it back in.
I will keep playing with other ideas once hunting season is over and I am not so busy with work, and let you know if and when I find the culprit for misfires!
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Hello all, sorry I've been away so long but wife had two heart attacks, mom and dad passed and I just felt like crap for the last few years. Anyway regarding the misfires, I have a striker fired 219 Utica gun that misfired and replaced all components from Numrich no help. turned out the striker assy was dragging on the stock. noticed a definite scarring on stock. I relieved that area and problem solved. hope that helps.
very respectfully
mkd
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mkd
Thanks for that input. It seems to me that sometimes, the firing pin is not going all the way back each time you break open the gun and put in a new round? Is that a striker mechanism issue? I am ignorant when it comes to internal parts and what does what......
I hope your wife is feeling better these days!
Mike
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Mike,
This is a weird one. If a 'smith checked it with a chamber gauge then the only thing other than light strikes from a firing pin would be being off-face. But in my experience, firing pins are long enough that even a gun terribly off face...like, visibly off face...should fire.
Maybe the tip of the firing pin broke a little? I have seen that. So then it fires 'sometimes.' But i just am doubting it's a chamber problem with a breech fired gun. I have swaped a bunch of barrels on my 219, and other than needing to remove a little meat on some hinge pins, they all work great.
Chris
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I think you are right, it is not a headspace issue. I also replaced the firing pin mechanism and it still had the same issue so I know it is not the firing pin. It is probably a cocking problem. It is as if that striker mechanism is not cocking properly at times. I took the stock off yesterday, but I cannot see where it is catching on anything. I think you mentioned your one gun was dragging on the stock somewhere?
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Keep talkin' you guys! I'm learning a LOT!
Mike Armstrong
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Mike, I'm not at my shop today but tomorrow will pull the stock on mine and see if i can help you narrow down. I've have five of these in my safe but never a headspace issue. I polished everything I could and finally decided to shoot it without the stock in an old machine rest, that's when it shot fine no misfires.
Respectfully
mkd123
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Fellows, this is some great information! Thanks for sharing. I have been away for several days and have not been able to talk to my gun smith/machinist about this problem. I will try to get up with him tomorrow, Monday. He will not talk on the phone, I must go to his home.
Mike, another thought, are all the brass you are using the same manufacturer? I remember reading in the past that not all brass of the same caliber, but different companies, is the same exact dimensions. I know that some really serious shooters, weigh the brass case and only use those that weigh closest to the same. And I also read that some of the really serious ones, fired one shot, and reloaded the same case for each of the next shots. That may be extreme. And, years ago, when I reloaded, I weighed all my bullets from time to time and noted as much as a 1 grain difference in 40 grain .22 jacketed bullets for my .22 Jet pistol.
Please keep us posted.
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Mike, I just had another thought. While you have the stock off and cock it, try several times, to see if maybe part of the time, the sear (due to being worn) is not engaging the striker every time you push the lever to the right. However, if this was the case, the firing pin tip would protrude thru the hole in the frame. Just grabbing at straws I suppose. But the pin dragging on the wood does sound as a reasonable cause for the problem.
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MKD and Garnett
Thanks for all this information.
MKD, I do have the stock off, and when I play with cocking the action I cannot see where anything sticks out a bit and would touch the wood, and cannot see any wear marks on the wood, but that does not mean it is not happening. I added some pictures of the two insides of the stock if that helps. It looks to me like a couple of areas are indented more on the one side but I thought that was just pieces that came out when they milled the stock
Garnett, I do not think it is a brass issue, as it was happening when I used up old boxes of factory ammo, as well as my reloads, and I went back through what I had misfires on and it was happening every fourth or fifth round on average, but not with any one kind of brass. I know some guns like one kind of brass more than others, but that does not seem to be the case with these old beauties?
The sear issue certainly could be the cause, as it seems to me that it does not cock properly at times, and that is what one of my friends who is far more knowledgeable was thinking was happening when he had the stock off. I also had the problem that the original firing pin was sticking out a few times when I first got the gun and was trying to close it, which made me wonder if I had damaged it, which is why I got a new one.
The other day when I fired off the reloads, and got a misfire, I opened the gun, closed it on that same round (which did have a slight dimple in the primer) and refired and it went off. That seems to indicate the striker/firing pin is not fully engaged and hits hard enough to make a mark but not hard enough to set off the primer, and when the gun is recocked it can fire that same misfired round as the firing pin is fully engaged? Or maybe that is the issue MKD has noted where something is catching somewhere?
(https://i.postimg.cc/LJHsckrt/20211025-105737.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LJHsckrt)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yh72Ff25/20211025-105749.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Yh72Ff25)
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After what you just said, did you replace the entire striker assembly, or just the striker? If you only replaced the striker, maybe the spring is weak or maybe shortened at some time in the past?
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It came with the whole assembly, including that spring.
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So I will assume this is a striker firing pin assembly and not a 219B. Next is it a Utica or a Chicopee Falls model. There were two different striker and trigger/sear combinations. As far as I know Numrich has not had the Utica style strikers to sell for several years. The notch on the striker pin part on a Utica is aright angle. The notch on the later model pin part that Numrich sells has a slope on it. The trigger and sear mechanism is also different. If someone replace the Utica pin at some point with a Chicopee thinks 220A vintage receiver then it with not work properly. If you replaced the striker pin part with another Chicopee slope notched pin you will not have solved your problem.
Also hold the receiver up too a light and look for the gap between the breech face and the chamber of the barrel. I’ve seen matching barrels and receivers on guns with very little use that were fit very poorly creating excessive head space. Are your primers protruding from the case on the rounds that do fire?
One spot than can cause friction on the striker firing pin models is the H shaped yoke that supports it and aligns it. Make sure it is centred in the frame of the receiver.
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Cleetus, Thanks for your input. I was not aware of this difference in strikers.
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Cleetus
Thanks for all this information. Since the gunsmith replaces the old firing pin mechanism with the one I ordered, I have no way of checking if the old one was different as I do not have it anymore. I will bug him to see if he kept the other one. I think my gun is a Utica model as it has the numbers D and V10L on the barrel (receiver also says V10L) and barrel stamp says Savage Arms Utica New York?
I will maybe play with leaving the primers sticking out just a bit on some reloads......
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I will maybe play with leaving the primers sticking out just a bit on some reloads......
The firing pin may just shove the primers forward in the primer pocket, cushioning the blow and giving another misfire. I'd be interested to know how you make out!
~Kees~
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Yes, my comment about the primers protruding was meant to ask if they protrude after firing. This would be an indication of too much headspace. I have a .22 hornet barrel that is basically useless because of the headspace issue. When the cartridges do go off they pop Bach and then make the gun hard to open.
I also looked at my different strikers and the right angle notch in the Utica strikers is further back than the angled notch in the later style striker for the 220A type action. Hence the striker would have the effect of not being fully cocked. Also as mentioned earlier the yoke that guides the striker and safety plunger might be tight and/or misaligned.
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One last test for a worn action issue on the headspace issue. With the gun closed take the forearm off and see if there is any wiggle or play in the barrel. These guns can feel tight with the forearm on exerting pressure on the lug and hinge pin but not without