Savage 219 and 220 Single Shot Rifles & Shotguns
Savage Single Shot Firearms => Savage 219 Single Shot Rifles => Topic started by: Mike Armstrong on December 10, 2014, 01:19:45 PM
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Garnett, I "finished" your book--actually I'll be coming back to it as often as I run across a reference to these guns, or see one for sale, etc. Good read: very glad you wrote it and I discovered it!
Another book that touches on the 219 is Frank de Haas' "Mr. Single Shot's Gunsmithing Idea Book," which has a (short) chapter on the 219. I don't have a copy--returned the copy my gunsmith loaned me years ago, and am working of my 72-year old memory, never a good source.
As I remember it, de Haas recommended some of the same maintenance and upgrading that you do. My own reaction is "ONLY do any of this stuff to a well-worn or already altered example"! Like land, they aren't makin' any more 219s or 220s!
They all deserve a glass reinforcement of the stock tang area, even the ones without cracks. Some need a careful stock refinish. I wouldn't reblue any that weren't already rusty or pitted. Some need sights (as close to original as you can find!) and some need "extra" holes plugged with plug screws.
Personally I went ahead and followed your advice about repainting the trigger guard on my 220 20 guage, and it looks good to my eye. Someday, once I know more about Savage stock finishes of the period, I'll refinish the stock of that shotgun, too.
De Haas mentions rechambering and "improving" of the 219. I remember him mentioning rechambering the Hornet to K-Hornet and .218 Mashburn, and I recently saw a Mashburn Bee chambered 219 for sale on either Gunbroker or GunsAmerica.
I think I remember him mentioning the .30-30 Ackley Improved as a possibility for the .30-30 version of the 219. I've seen one rechambered to .30-40 Krag (done to salvage a ruined .30-30 chamber; it worked very well), but never an AI.
He also mentioned a .25-20 "Improved" called the .255 Deane, I think. I've never seen one of those, and would rather just use a .22 Hornet if I need something "hotter" than a .25-20 WHV equivalent load. De Haas didn't see any alternative chamber for a .32-20 219 (if you can even find one!).
Anybody else seen "wildcat" 219s? I'd be interested to see if anyone has rechambered a Hornet to .219 Zipper or a .25-20 to .25-35, although I have reservations about both of those conversions.
My general take on these little single shots is "If you're lucky enough to have a nice one, leave it the heck alone!". If I had a 220 in 12 guage, I'd probably add a "Four Tenner," or a "Guage Mate" in .410 or 20 guage to it. 12 guage single shots, whatever the make, really do "Back Up" on you!
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Mike, I have a book by de Haas printed in 1969. It does not have any Savage single shots in it. I checked with Amazon and they have some used copies of the one you mention, "starting at $80.00". I checked another site and they are even higher. That is a little steep for me at this time. I paid $1.88 cents for the one I have years ago. :-) I agree with you...I would not do anything to a good rifle as far as rechambering goes. I don't even shoot the ones I have. However, if barrels were plentiful, a .30-40 would be nice. A Hornet could be rebored to the calibers you mention plus maybe the .22 Remington Jet. A .25-20 could be changed to .25-35 and the .32-20 to .32-40. A reader of my says he is planning on getting a shot gun barrel and lining it to a different caliber. You could have lots of old Wincherster center fire calibers with that..... .38-55 or .40-65 or .45-70. I have several of the "Four Tenner" sets. I have not tried them. I have seen at least 2 "Zipper" conversions. I just checked the Numrich parts site. They list lots of barrels but the only one in stock, M219, a 20" 20 Gauge with 3" chamber for $71.75. I see lots of barrels on Gunbroker. A .410 barrel could possibly be relined to one of the smaller calibers. Merry Christmas!
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Yeah, I looked at that price for the de Haas "Gunsmithing Ideas" book and backed right off! But apparently you can get a E-book version cheap, so I'm going to have my wife (our media genius) see if she can get me one.
I'd worry about reboring the .25-20 to .25-35 unless you handload. The .25-20 twist is for 60-86 gr bullets and they work OK with 87 gr. as long as they aren't too long-for-caliber. The .25-35 is for 87-117 gr. bullets. I would consider getting a shot-out .30-30 relined to .25-35, but not sure what I'd use it for....
Once had a beat-up 220B in 12 guage relined by a friend to the wildcat .35-30, a .358 on a necked-up .30-30 case favored in the past by cast bullet shooters. It was very accurate with both cast and jacketed bullets (even 158 gr. .357 magnum bullets) and a nice, if a bit unwieldy, rifle.
Unlike you, I'm not a gun collector....horrified my collector friends by taking an unfired 2nd model Colt "Sport Woodsman" out of the factory wrapping paper and running a couple of hundred rounds through it! It shot as well as the factory target showed. If I get a gun, I shoot it.
The "Four-Tenner" works great, by the way, if you like .410s. I do.
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You remind me of a very good friend. Years ago he purchased a limited edition S&W large frame revolver in .45 Long Colt. Took it out the next day and shot it! But I agree with you, they are made to shoot. I have an old Colt .22 auto in the original box with all the papers. It has been shot, but not by me. :-) I will start looking for the de Hass book at used book stores, garage sales, etc. I would like to have it.
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Garnett, I found the article I mentioned earlier in one of Frank de Haas' books. It was originally printed in the December 1962 issue of "Shooting Times" as one of a long series on single shot rifles and actions. It is on pages 24-26, and gives a brief history and appreciation/evaluation of the 219, mechanical disassembly and assembly instructions, and the remarks on rechambering I mentioned above. A couple of photos, too.
One thing of interest is that he regarded the 219s as strong enough to rechamber to .30-40, but advised against it because of the recoil of that cartridge in a rifle as light as a 219. I say "Amen" to that, but note that a friend of mine in Idaho used a 219 rechambered to .30-40 for many years as his meat deer and elk rifle and never had a problem with recoil with factory 180 gr Remington ammo. Of course he only fired 2 or 3 a year, and always at game. If you are as good a hunter as he was, "firepower" is not a factor!
Let me know if you are interested in seeing this de Haas article. I'll try to make copies; if that doesn't work, I'll mail you the magazine. I'm aware that is an antique way of trading information but I guess where data transfer is concerned, I'M an antique!
Regards,
Mike Armstrong
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Mike, I really would like to have a copy of the article. Please send to: Garnett Stancil, 340 County Road 232, Valley Grande, AL 36701. I will return the book if you can't copy those pages. Supposedly, two .30-40 Krag conversions were done at the R&D dept. of Savage according to one source. However, another source, who has the R&D records, says none were never made by Savage, and any found must be after market conversions. As to the recoil of the .30-40.....the stock on the M219 is already a major problem where it meets with the action. It is very weak at that point, and most will have fine or major cracks. I would think with a rifle restocked with the wood left extra thick at that point (I have one that was done that way) and glass bedded, that would cure the cracking problem. Then a good thick recoil pad would soften the blow of the .30-40. Merry Christmas!
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Garnett, either the copied pages or the magazine will be in the snail mail by Monday. Send the magazine back at your leisure if you get it instead of copies.
The guy in Idaho who had the .30-40 conversion was a part-time gunsmith and had glassed the back of the stock when he did the rechamber. He would have left the rifle in ,30-30 except that somebody had tried to extract a stuck case body with a hardened tool like a chisel or screwdriver and really scored it badly so that it didn't want to eject .30-30 cases....Bubba strikes again!
Have a great holiday!
Mike Armstrong
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I am leaving for Christmas with my daughter in Hershey PA next Tuesday, so I won't be able to return the magazine to you until mid January. Thanks for sharing it with me. Garnett
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Anybody interested in seeing some rechambered/remodelled 219s might look at Gunbroker.com items #s 461794867 and 461299891. I wouldn't buy either of these rifles, but it is interesting that 219s have been treated like other classic single shots by shooters over the years--"customized."
It's a free country and a guy can do whatever he wants to with his personal rifle....but I'm of the opinion that any good old gun that is scarce AND in good condition should be preserved in original condition. If you find one in beat-up condition and want to convert it to something reasonable and safe, fine. But I always try to return such guns as near to original condition as my skill and the availability of parts allows.
For my money, Savage made very reasonable choices of calibers for the 219, given the likely markets and uses for these rifles. And the original furnishings and finish are very appropriate, especially in the Utica-made models.
The only "improvement" that was made in the later models is the scope grooves on the .22 Hornets, IMO. The rest was just economics, possibly false economics.
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Mike, there is a lot of truth in what you say. I have only converted one rifle to another caliber in my many years of collecting and it was a mistake. My wife's father brought home a matching 6.5 caliber Japanese Type 38 carbine from WWII. Due to a shortage of that ammo, I had my gunsmith convert it to 6.5/257 Roberts. Big mistake! My son, who collects Japanese military, still gives me grief over the conversion! :-)
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The only "improvement" that was made in the later models is the scope grooves on the .22 Hornets, IMO. The rest was just economics, possibly false economics.
I agree with this sentiment, Mike. Truth is, this mentality seems to have taken hold of most American manufacturers in the 1960's and 70's, and it's emblematic of a whole broad shift in the 'American aesthetic' starting in that time.
Back to Savage...
The Model 24 combination gun saw the very same type of cheapening, as they moved away from fully brazed barrels and into banded separate barrels (which MAY have regulated correctly and shot both barrels straight, IF you got lucky and got a cherry).
One really does have to wonder how the same company which produced (or adopted, as is the case with the model 24) innovations like hammer-less cocking, and the box magazine lever gun (Savage 99)...can also now produce the Savage model 42 (an embarrassing abomination...what on Earth were they thinking).
Truth be told, some of the genius of Savage over the years was in their acquisitions -- Stevens and Fox -- and in what those purchases brought to the company over all in terms of design and niche appeal.
All just my opinion, of course.
While I am new to owning a very sweet 219, I am a long time lover of Savages. But in reading through Garnett's book, as well as de Haas's comments in "Potpourri," as well as other things around the internet I've read...I gather the same sort of 'backsliding' in terms of design and overall quality in the progressive variations of the 219 over time, just as I've seen personally in other models.
In fact, in finishing his explanation of the different variations over time as he narrates his illustrations, de Haas finishes by inferring he believed the 219's design went somewhat backward over time, and that the original 219 was his favorite (he only specifically indicates that he owned a 219 and 219L, but one would certainly infer that he has to have at least torn a borrowed 219B apart, given his detailed illustrations and details). He did also give a hat tip to the 219C, which he said was a slight improvement over the 219B because of an upgrade in the way the firing pin was retained in the receiver.
Of course, as stated above, manufacturing shortcuts over time were certainly not unique to Savage!
(Personally, I like the case hardened finish of the lettered 219's, so I'm adding a 219C in .22 Hornet to my "if I can find one" list. ;))
- Sentry44
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Mike,
I should add, too, that you make a great point about the caliber choices they made with the 219. The 30-30 could handle deer duties quite nicely, while the .22 Hornet could handle every pest from coyotes to groundhogs, in addition to small game hunting at distances .22 rimfires couldn't dream of.
I own a fantastic Savage 23D in .22 Hornet...one of the very latest ones they made at the very end (1947-48), and it's one heck of a shooter. But price wise it was more than TWICE the price of a Model 219 in 1948! I know because I have an original full page ad from 1948, offering the following models and prices:
Savage 99 (cal. .250-3000 or .300 Savage) -- $88.80
Stevens 325 (cal. .30-30) -- $38.25
Savage 23C (cal. .32-20) -- $57.95
Savage 23D (cal. .22 Hornet) -- $57.95
Savage 219 (cal. .30-30, .32-20, .25-20 or .22 Hornet) -- $26.20 !!!!!
To put that in perspective, using an inflation assumption of 3% a year, that equates to a NEW gun cost of $189.84 in TODAY'S dollars. Just an incredible value.
(** BTW, that figure demonstrates one of two things. EITHER we've had way more inflation than 3%...or the value of what we are sold today is WAY, WAY less for our dollar than it was back then. Because even a NEW H&R today costs about 50% more than that, unless I'm mistaken. And I doubt it ranks with an early 219.)
- Sentry44
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Sentry44, Thanks for this additional information and comments. The 219/220 design is truly a classic in my opinion. I also love the Ruger No.1 with the Alexander Henry forearm!
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Garnett,
I don't own a #1, but I've handled one and they sure are well built. I am not familiar with what an Alexander Henry forearm looks like, but I will beg the all-knowing Google to show me.
- Sentry44
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Mike, I had two surprises Christmas. When I got to my son's house on the 23rd, he had found a well used copy of the DeHass book at his local library and checked it out for me to read. Then....
Christmas morning, I opened one of my gifts from him and there was a nearly NEW copy of the book he purchased for me! It was a great gift and he is a very thoughtful son. As soon as I get home next week, I will return your book to you. Best wishes, Garnett
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Garnett, isn't that what we had those boys for in the first place? I always looked at 'em as investments in Christmas futures.... The risk is they go to places like Iraq (my older son), and Afghanistan (my Marine "baby") and you worry you'll lose your investment! (Kidding).
My younger son gave me a 2015 "Gun Digest" and my older son a 3-year subscription to "Rifle" and "Handloader." Nice dividends, for sure.
Then my younger son took us to a range and proceeded to show us how Marines shoot a .45 Auto. Truth is, he WASN'T "an officer and a gentleman by an act of Congress" and only was issued a sidearm when he made E-6, 6 months before separation from the service. The .45 was a gift from me, but MAN can that kid shoot it!!!
Don't worry about returning the de Haas article; I have another. Take care driving home, if you're driving--I see the weather is brutal between PA and Alabama.
Mike Armstrong
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Mike, I know you are proud of your sons! I was too young for Korea, and too old for Viet Nam. I did serve 12 years in the Alabama Army National Guard. I learned a lot and made some good friends. I think today's Guard is better trained than ever before.
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There is a M219 on Gunbroker now at auction. It has been re-bored to .38-55. I would not mind having it but someone carved the stock and to me, it looks terrible.
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I discovered a site on Gunbroker.com telling about a gunsmith who specializes in reboring the 219 Savage to other calibers, one of which is the .38-55. The site for the gunsmith is www.35caliber.com I wonder if a .30-30 could be rebored to a .32-40?
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I just ordered a 219 .22 Hornet barrel from a member of Colt Forum that has been rechambered to .219 Zipper. It came to the owner with a 219 .30-30, and he apparently never shot it, although he bought some factory ammo for it and also some primed brass.
For $100 total including shipping, I figured it was an experiment worth trying, especially since "Mr. Single Shot" (gunsmith and gun writer Frank de Haas, RIP) says the action is OK for this caliber. Not sure if it is grooved or has scope mounts, but I'll figure that out.
I'll try any loose factory ctgs. if there are any to see how it functions, then load 40 or 45 gr. Hornet bullets into the primed cases and try it for accuracy. If it's OK, then I'll start scouting around for a supply of Zipper cases for the future. I'm sure somebody makes them from .30-30 cases, since this was a fairly popular varmint ctg. among single shot nuts back in the day (and there are a few of US left!).
If he includes any complete box of factory Zipper ctgs., I'll sell them to a collector and recoup some of my modest "investment."
If it won't group, or I get bored fooling with the Zipper, I'll have Sonny France or somebody else reline it back to .22 Hornet, since the outside looks new and I have a blank extractor to fit.
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Mike, it sounds to me like you got a great buy! I have not reloaded in 30 years so I am not up on "things", but way back then, RCBS would make most any die that you needed. I would think you would only need to run the .30-30 cases through a full length sizing die to get to .22 size, but I could be wrong. You might need a neck sizing only die between to two sizes to make the first reduction with. Please keep us posted on the accuracy. Also, whether or not you have a problem fitting the Zipper barrel to your action. If you get "bored" with it, but it shoots good, please give me a chance to purchase it from you. Best wishes, Garnett
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Garnett, I have a large supply of .25-35WCF unprimed cases that I got for a couple of rifles I have in that caliber. If I take a liking to the Zipper, I might just get a custom reloader I know to make Zipper cases out of a few of them. Don't plan on shooting up a hatful of Zippers any time soon, tho, since I already have a .22 Hornet.
I'll keep you in mind should I decide to move the rechambered Zipper barrel along. Too bad the Zipper wasn't more popular; it's much like a rimmed .222 Rem. A friend of mine once had a Krag single shot Zipper done by a custom gunsmith that was a beautiful and REALLY accurate single shot. But lever action varmint rifles just were out of fashion by the time the Zipper came along and nobody ever chambered a factory bolt action for it. Works great in a small Martini, if you have one lyin' around!
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Good luck and let us know how it shoots.
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Got the 219 barrel in the mail today. It is a Chicopee Falls barrel and is in almost new condition in and out. For a standard early 219 action; no cocking pin or scope grooves, and originally a .22 Hornet. Fits my Utica action perfectly, and I can see where it was fitted to another action--by dumb-ass luck it also fits mine!
It's still 26 inches long, but has had the front sight removed and the mounting screws buffed flush with the barrel radius, which will make them hard to remove in case I decide to replace the sight (normally I would). There is a Weaver aluminum one-piece scope mount fitted onto the barrel with two screws, so scope mounting won't be a problem.
39(!) unprimed WW .219 Zipper cartridges came with this barrel and one fired case. The fired case is identical to the unprimed ones except for the fired primer, so I know it's a standard Zipper, not an Improved or Donaldson wildcat. That's good. The box the unprimed cases came in is factory marked January 1979, so I wonder if that is near when the conversion was done?
Once I get my tools sorted out, I'm going to try some Hornet bullets over a mild Zipper load in the cases. Don't have Zipper dies but probably can cobble together loads with .22 Hornet and .25-35 tools, since this is a single shot rifle. Worst thing that can happen is "patterns" not groups, I think. But I'll wear my safety glasses....
If I get "patterns," I'll save the $$ to get this very nice barrel relined to .22 Hornet. In any case, it's an interesting experiment.
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Mike, Is the writing on the left side of the barrel and the scope base screws drilled through the writing for a side mount (or is it a top mounted scope base?) or is the writing on top of the barrel, which would indicate it was factory drilled and tapped. I still think if you don't like this barrel you should sell it to me, take my money and purchase a factory original .22 Hornet barrel. :) Please send pictures of the scope mount holes and the targets. I am interested in the accuracy of a rechambered barrel. It would seem the easiest way to remedy the front sight problem would be to get a barrel band front sight. However, are the buffed flush screws wide enough to drill a small hole in the top of each and use a "back out" bit to remove them? Best wishes, Garnett
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Garnett, it's a top-mount, and the lettering is on the sides--I'll email you a pic when I get to it.
The screws are very small, so I'm not sure if an "easy out" would work. May try one later, but I'll have to use my next door neighbor's drill press to avoid scratching the barrel--not a situation for "free hand" drilling! Probably start with a dental burr to center the drill.
The other "solution" would be to drill out the two little original screws and retap threads for a size larger and then mount a Williams Streamlined Ramp or some such.
Barrel band front sights used to be easy to find, but aren't any more, and then you have to either find JUST the right interior diameter to fit the end of the barrel, or ream a tighter one out. Fairly dull work, at best.
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Good luck, what ever you decide to do. Garnett
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Garnett, if you're still interested in my rechambered 219 .219 Zipper barrel shoot me a PM; I'll sell it for what I paid for it, shipping included ($100 total), and throw in a Savage-marked 2.5X 1" scope and Savage-marked rings, plus a leather-and-canvas no-name takedown case made for something like the 219/220, in the late 1930s--it will take up to 30" barrel.
All these "extras" are used but in usable condition, and I thought you might want to add them to your collection. Savage scope has a neat "post-and-crosshair" reticle.
The 219 in .219 Zipper shoots fine (I shot the few rounds that came with it) but I can't see getting into reloading a whole new caliber now, especially one that requires re-forming existing brass to fit. And I've not found a gunsmith who will reline the barrel for less than what the whole gun, including barrels, is worth!
Let me know if we can work out a deal. I'm also interested in other 219/220 barrels, or a shotgun forend/iron that would fit my early Utica 219. I have a nice Chicopee Falls .410 forend/iron (3 screw) to swap also.
Mike Armstrong
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Mike, I will take it. Look for the PM.
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I now have Mike's .219 Zipper barrel. The 3rd action I tried it on, fit perfectly. However, the forearm will not fit at all. I have an extra forearm that almost fits, and I will have my gunsmith friend fit it for me. The new forearm is a light hard wood, and when it is fitted, I will remove the old finish and try to darken it, before refinishing. If it turns out well, I will supply pictures.
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Hey, Garnett and all Y'all, :)
I'm new to your forum, and am glad there is some entity out there who still cares about these fine little firearms. I just picked up an early Utica rifle that was originally chambered in .22 Hornet, and someone somewhere along the line rechambered it to the old 2R Lovell wildcat. This round is made from the even older 25-20 Single Shot casing, not to be confused with the much shorter 25-20 Winchester. The case is necked down to accept .224 bullets, and blown out nearly straight-walled during fireforming, with a much sharper shoulder and shorter neck, all for the reason of increased powder capacity. Back during the 1930s and up 'til the birth of the .222 Remington, the 2R Lovell just about ruled the roost in small-bore competitions. The birth of the .222 Rem. sung the death nell for about all previous .22 rounds. The 2R Lovell will push a 40g Hornet bullet to 3400 fps easily, and a 52g HPBT sierra MK to about 3100 fps, all through a 26-in. barrel.
This little rifle has had a tough life. It's got plenty of extra holes from a couple different scope mounts and a receiver sight at some time, but the inside of the barrel looks virtually unfired. These Hornet rifles were built with a 1-in-14 twist, which Berger and Sierra both say is just right for bullets of 55g and less. The rifle has been restocked at some point with a beautiful piece of Claro walnut off of a Ruger Red Letter shotgun (plenty of meat in the head of the stock to make the obvious alterations), and I'm doing some much-needed refinishing of the metal parts since the gun has no collector value as is, and never will have. I found a source of new 25-20 SS brass, all you want (!?!?), and now I am pokin' around for a set of dies and a shellholder for the 2R Lovell caliber. RCBS lists the dies, but they're pretty proud of 'em, at $151.00 without the shellholder. For an old fart on a fixed income, that's pretty steep.
I started reloading with my Grampa's help, at the age of eleven. We worked up all sorts of accuracy loads for the venerable 30-06 and .38 Spl., and I've been a group-shooter ever since. If this thing works out as I hope, maybe I can post a few pictures of it.
I got the little rifle's action apart OK, with nothing worse than a slightly bent firing pin, but I'd like to have a little help with the theory of puttin' it back together. Does anyone know of any verbal or pictorial help for that purpose? Much obliged, y'all :o
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Sniper, Welcome to the forum! Savage never published disassembly/reassembly instructions because of "Liability" concerns. There is an article in the December 1962 edition of Shooting Times by Frank de Hass, that gives complete instructions. There was a copy for sale a couple of weeks ago on Ebay. Maybe it is still there. The only verbal help I can give you here is what one of my readers advised....."If you think a wire spring is bent....DO NOT straighten it, it was made that way for a reason!" :-) Please do post pictures of your M219 and also a picture of a 2R Lovell case. Please email me on my regular email: garnettstancil@hotmail.com put Savage in the title so I will know it is not spam. Best wishes, Garnett
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Hey, Garnett, ::)
Did you put any info or pictures to help with the re-assembly in your book? I might be forced to abandon my cheap-azz ways, and come up off the cash for the book, if so. Do you accept PayPal, If so I can pay you immediately if you trust me with your e-mail address or your Phone number. That's all that's needed for instant transfer from my PayPal credit account. Let me know-------- :P
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Sniper, My book does not has disassembly/reassembly information. Please see the my previous answer to your first post. The book has lots of other info and pictures not found anywhere else. I do not accept pay-pal, unless forced to by ebay sales. I will be happy to take your personal check or USPS money order if you decide to purchase my book. My email address is:
garnettstancil@hotmail.com Please email me as I have some information you may can use. Best wishes, Garnett
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"They all deserve a glass reinforcement of the stock tang area, even the ones without cracks." Mike, you mentioned this and I stress this in my book. It is one of the two weak points on these guns. I have even had cracked stocks on .22 Hornets. I would not think the recoil in this cartridge would be enough to crack the stock.