Savage 219 and 220 Single Shot Rifles & Shotguns
Savage Single Shot Firearms => Savage 219 Single Shot Rifles => Topic started by: Sentry44 on January 12, 2015, 07:53:33 AM
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OK, so next issue. I'm shopping around for a shotgun barrel for my early 219 (.30-30). Will I need to acquire a shotgun forearm as well? I would think there's a good deal of crossover (.30-30 also fits maybe 16 & 20 ga? just 20ga?)...but that for 12 ga or .410 I'd need new forearms.
Given mine is a .30-30, is my assumption correct that some shotgun gauges will fit? If so...which ones?
- Sentry44
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Sentry44, While I have all gauges, I have not yet have time to study which gauge/caliber will interchange. I have been away from home since before Christmas, just arriving back yesterday. My guns are packed away at a safe place and it will be few days before I get them back home. I will study a little and try to answer your question. Best wishes, Garnett
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Thanks, Garnett! You're owning most of the variations sure makes that helpful.
For the record, it's a 16 ga or 20 ga that I'm shopping for. But I'd like to know about all the variation...just info to have. In fact, when you've figured it out, this might be a topic you make "sticky" on the site, as an information utility. (just a suggestion)
It's probably a decent assumption that Savage only used two barrel sizes for shotgun: 12/16 & 20/410, the latter of each just having more meat on them. Even so, the question begs answering which rifle calibers align with which shotgun forearm, and vice versa.
Thx for looking into it Garnett,
- Sentry44
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I do know that the "Utility" guns sets were furnished with a forearm for each barrel.
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Thanks, Garnett! You're owning most of the variations sure makes that helpful.
For the record, it's a 16 ga or 20 ga that I'm shopping for. But I'd like to know about all the variation...just info to have. In fact, when you've figured it out, this might be a topic you make "sticky" on the site, as an information utility. (just a suggestion)
It's probably a decent assumption that Savage only used two barrel sizes for shotgun: 12/16 & 20/410, the latter of each just having more meat on them. Even so, the question begs answering which rifle calibers align with which shotgun forearm, and vice versa.
Thx for looking into it Garnett,
- Sentry44
I am home now, but the guns have still not been retrieved from "Safe" storage when I am away. I have not forgotten and will look in to your question. Best wishes, Garnett
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I had a look today at my Utica-made .30-30 and a Utica-made 20 guage barrel that I recently bought and haven't had time to try with the .30-30 receiver yet. The 20 guage fits the .30-30 forearm perfectly.
Don't have the .410 barrels and forearms for my two Utica rifles here right now, but will get them next week and try them and let you know what fits what, if Garnett doesn't do it first. My GUESS is that the .410, 28 (which won't be Utica- made IF you can find one--they apparently started making them in 1955, according to the '55 Gun Digest) and 20 will fit the .30-30 barrel.
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Mike, thanks for this up date. I have had a very busy time since returning and hope to retrieve my guns from secure storage early next week. I have a gunshow this weekend with my son in Huntsville, Alabama.
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Hello---
I am new to this site, but I am a fan of the 219/220, have a few, and hope to be able to contribute a bit to the discussions.
As to the interchangeability of fore-ends, I don't believe that any shotgun fore-end (except for a .410) will properly fit on a rifle barrel. It may snap on, but there is bound to be a gap between the wood and the barrel, increasing towards the muzzle.
Comparing the fore-ends that I have, I believe that the channel diameters were different for the 12, 16, and 20 ga. I do, though, believe that the channel diameters of the .410 and all rifle calibers were the same.
I also see several different designs in the fore-end hardware. That of what I think is the earliest has a clipped-off washer under the screw and a curving, doubled-over spring-piece. The next has the same spring piece but no washer under the screw. Instead a cone shape. The third type has the cone shape but the spring piece is not doubled over and is not curved but wavy. These fore-ends are all from Utica guns.
If I were looking to buy a fore-end to add to a particular gun, I think I would try to find one that had the same kind of hardware as that that the gun already has.
Incidentally, I also note that there are two different types of hooks (not sure what better word to use) on the barrels. The earlier type is heavier. The later type is slimmer, lighter looking. But I suspect that this is not an issue. I believe that either type will serve to clasp the barrel to an otherwise proper fore-end.
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Thank you for this information!
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Hi Guys,
Since starting this thread I was able to acquire both a 16 ga shotgun barrel, AND matching forearm. This alleviated my concern about what forearm size, because this one came together as original...and they are in barely used condition!
What I can report about about the 16 ga forearm is that it is very different from the .30-30 forearm in almost every dimension except overall length. It is both taller and fatter, and the location of the latch spring and recessed hole for the barrel hook to sink into are very slightly different than the rifle forearm, such that it doesnt really want to "hold" onto the .30-30 barrel.
Conversely, the .30-30 forearm does NOT fit the 16 ga barrel.
I believe that Savage numbered many of their forearms which were interchangable between models. This 16 ga forearm is numbered "7" underneath, and both of my Savage model 24 forearms are labeled "8." They are both 20 ga, and as a separate matter, are not the same shape of the 219/220's.
The .30-30 forearm has some sort of mark, but it isn't impressed deep enough for me to read.
For you guys who own a 12 ga or 20 ga, I would be interested what number is on the forearm (if any). I would GUESS that the 12 and 16 ga forearms are the same, owing to another guess that the 12 and 16 ga barrels are the same exterior dimensions.
Would love to know for sure from anyone who owns them both and therfore knows for certain.
- Sentry
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Thanks for this info. I have carefully examined all the forearms (29) in my collection. Some are marked with a number, some with a letter, some unmarked, and some the mark can't be determined. The rilfe forearms are slim and trim, but not all the same design, and the shotgun forearms are larger, and again, not all the same shape. I am going to try to advise which will interchange as soon as I can get things here orgainized.
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Thx Garnett, I think it would very useful for there to be some type of basic table of "what fits what."
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Sentry, I have finally started on research for this subject this afternoon. I have compared forearm fittings on 3 M219's. .30-30, .25-20, & .22 Hornet. I do not have a .32-20 :-( , but lets assume the barrels are the same. All 3 rifles had forearms of a different design, but each foream would fit the other rifles, if the attachment metal was removed. Forearms with different metal would not interchange without attachment removal. When held on to the barrel, the fit or opening of the barrel channel varied from forearm to forearm but was acceptable. So, I believe I can make a statement that rifle forearms will interchange with other rifles if the attachment metal is the same, as suggested by Breaker. Now, as time permits I will research to see which rifle and shotgun forarms will interchange. Again, please keep in mind, that the attachment metal must be the same as originally fitted to that particular rifle.
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Garnett,
I guess knowing what forearm wood fits what barrel profile is useful in and of itself. The problem arrises, I guess, if the degree of inward/outward adjustment on the rear forearm mechanism screw doesn't offer sufficient adjustment. With the forearm metal held to the wood via the escutcheon and screw the way it is, I wonder whether there'd be enough wiggle room.
Furthermore, if one were to back the assembly out more than a couple turns there would be a noticable gap where the forearm wood should otherwise fit flush to the receiver end. Conversely, if the assembly were tightened inward more than a couple turns the forearm wood would go too hard against the receiver, possibly requiring you to shave wood off of the forearm end in order for it to fit against the receiver.
Granted, all of this is really the difference between what you COULD do if you simply could not find any other forearms than the one you had...and what one would PREFER to do, if simply shopping around for a forearm.
Me, I guess I'd prefer to understand the numbering system (if we can decipher one) and be able to simply ask of the seller what the code is and feel reasonably confident I have or don't have the right part.
Just my 2 cents.
- Sentry
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Sentry, I hope to crack the code of forearm letters/numbers at some point in time. I think it will take a lot of help from others who have these guns, to establish a pattern. Hopefully they will return data sheets or join in this forum discussion.
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My guess is that the letters and numbers stamped into the channels of the fore-end wood will tell nothing at all about the barrel that the fore-end was designed to fit. Interchangeability will simply turn out to be about the type of hardware of the fore-end and the diameter of the channel.
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Breaker, what you say could very well be true. I do not have enough guns nor feed back from readers to make a comfortable statement as to what the numbers really mean. Thanks for your input.
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I've found that the 20 guage 28" 220 barrel I have fits my .30-30 receiver and forend fine (it came with no forend). I'd prefer a shotgun type forend for this, but the thinner "splinter" rifle barrel will work. This barrel is marked for guage only, no manufacturer name, model, or manufactuing site. It is clearly a Savage 220 barrel, tho, and I think a Utica made one.
The Utica-made .410 26" barrel that I have came with a shotgun type forend. I fitted the barrel to the .30-30 receiver easily (few licks with a fine file and some polishing with fine emery paper, plus lotsa grease) but the forend doesn't work unless, as Garnett mentions, you fit it with the metal from the .30-30 forend. The forend metal it came with is very different from the .30-30's, a later type.
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Sentry, Please forgive me for not getting back sooner with the shotgun forearm information. I have had a busy Spring. In comparing Model 220's in 12, 16, 20, 28, .410, and 9 MM R.F. shot, I found the following information. Again, this is for wood only, the forearm must have the same type attaching metal as originally on the gun. The 12 and 16 will interchange with acceptable clearance when the 12 is on the 16 barrel. The 16 on the 12 barrel appears to be ok, maybe a little tight, but could be opened up. I can't be more specific on this because the attaching metal is different on the two examined. The 12 and the 16 will fit the 20 barrel with the 12 having excessive space and the 16 being a better fit. The 20 forearm is to small for the 16 and 12. The 20 forearm will fit the 28 barrel with some slack. The 28 forearm will not fit the 20 at all and is to large for the .410. The .410 forearm will not fit the 28 barrel at all. The .410 forearm will fit the 9 MM barrel with acceptable slack. As a comparison, I tried the 219 rifle forearm on the 9 MM and it was way to big. The 219 forearm will fit the .410 barrel with acceptable slack but is to small for the 28 barrel. I hope this will help some. While I have gotten some much appreciated data from some readers, I still have insufficient data to unlock the mystery of the code of letters and numbers (or lack of) stamped inside the forearms. Best wishes, Garnett
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Thanks for all that Garnett. My greatest interest was in solving which shotgun fore ends work with which rifle calibers. Or really, vice versa, figuring that the shotgun will likely always fit all rifles.
As I said earlier, the 16 ga fore end I have is too big and loose for the .30-30. And the .30-30 fore end will not close over the 16 ga. But I have since acquired a 20 ga barrel (without a fore end), and the .30-30 fore end closed perfectly over it. The 16 ga works too, but it's a bit big.
It's interesting you report a difference between the 16ga fit and the 12ga fit. I guess I would have figured they were the same outside dimensions...the 12 simply having less meat and more bore. LOTS of 16's are like this, and I think that's part of what has relegated the 16ga to "near death" in terms of sales. Seems many manufacturers decided to do either a 12 frame or a 20 frame. As a result people would often get a 16ga which was HEAVIER than a comparable 12ga, because it was the same frame and barrels just with smaller bores (and therefore more surrounding steel).
In any event, I'm a happy man with 30-30/16ga/20ga. The only barrels left to fill out my dance card would be a .22 Hornet (which I think is one of the all time great cartridges!).
- Sentry44
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I completely missed your point of rifle to shotgun & vise versa. I will look into it some more. Best wishes, Garnett