Author Topic: Rear sight question  (Read 3027 times)

Jkrock

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Rear sight question
« on: February 16, 2018, 03:32:04 PM »
Hi,

I just acquired a pre war 219 in 22 hornet and found this website.  Great info here!

 The barrel appears to be factory drilled and tapped for a side mount base. The rear sight is marked Dockendorff.  Is this a factory sight or was it installed later?

Garnett

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Re: Rear sight question
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2018, 08:31:51 PM »
Jkrock, Welcome to this forum!  I hope you will find something of interest to you on my site.  I have been doing research on these two model guns, 219/220 for almost 14 years.  I have never had, nor seen a rear sight marked in any way.  The early Savage models were milled and the later ones stamped.  Can you please provide pictures of your rear sight and also the barrel where it is drilled and tapped.  I have seen very few of what I consider factory drilled and tapped for a side mount scope base.    If the barrel writing is on the left side and holes are drilled through this writing, that was an after market addition.  The very few barrels I have seen that I believe were drilled and tapped at the factory, have the writing moved to the top center of the barrel so that no holes are drilled through this writing for a side mount scope.  Please provide pictures if you can.  Best wishes, Garnett

Jkrock

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Re: Rear sight question
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2018, 10:53:07 PM »
Thank you Garrett. I will try to post pictures tomorrow.  The stamping is on the top of the barrel. This is the only picture I have on my phone right now, but I’ll take more in the morning.  You can see one of the scope mount screws in this photo



Garnett

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Re: Rear sight question
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2018, 11:24:49 PM »
You do have what I believe to be a factory original drilled and tapped barrel.  I have catalogs starting in 1936 and have not seen this feature offered.  I have one such barrel in my collection and have seen one other for sale on the internet.  This is a very nice, hard to find feature.  Thanks for sharing the picture and I look forward to pictures of the rear sight. 

Jkrock

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Re: Rear sight question
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2018, 07:11:36 AM »
Thanks again, Garrett.  I didn’t realize it was unusual.  I didn’t know anything about these rifles, but saw it in a shop the other day and really like it.  The style and lines caught my eye.  I thought it looked “graceful” for lack of a better word. Anyway, here are a few more photos.

Jim










Garnett

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Re: Rear sight question
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2018, 07:46:10 AM »
I have seen rear sights like this one, but I do not think it came from the factory with this gun.  It is an improvement over the factory original and I would leave it as is.  No telling how many years it has been on the barrel.  Your comment "I thought it looked graceful”, is one of the words I used in my book describing the early trigger guards......"gracefully curved and tapered to the rear".   All in all, you have a very hard to find option with this barrel.  Thanks for sharing the pictures with us! 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 04:46:54 PM by Garnett »

Sentry44

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Re: Rear sight question
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2018, 10:34:51 AM »
Gents,

According to Stroebel, Savage offered several brand name sights from the factory over the years, sometimes bearing the name, and sometimes bearing a rebranded Savage number designation.  The standard rear sight for model 219/220 is called "Savage #20 semi-buckhorn rear sight."  It is LIKEY a redesignated sight made by one of the companies they offered.

From the earliest days, Savage offered Lyman sights, either standard or as an option (some guns offered multiple options).

Still early, they offered King and Marble sights, and then later starting in the 50's they began offering Redfield and Williams sights.  I dont see any other names in the book.

BUT.  I KNOW that I have seen multiple Savage model 340 bolt action rifles wearing Dockendorff rear sights.  They all had a circlular disc that you would spin up or down as the riser, rather than the little stepped riser most sights have.

And while the book doesnt mention Dockendorff for the Model 340, it does say that the standard sight for that gun was a "Savage disc-type rear sight."

So...decent guess that Dockendorff was the maker, I guess.

They began the Model 340 in 1949, but it says here that the "disc-type" sight was first offered in 1953.

As such, you will have to speculate as to whether it was original to your 219, or if it was original to a 340 and someone transplanted it.

At a minimum, you know it's a 1950's vintage sight.

On Dockendorff...I dont have a primary source, but on a web forum I see a gentleman who posted the following:

In the January 1948 issue of American Rifleman, page 57, in the section entitled 'Gun Trade Dope,' they note that "Dockendorff and Company of Oronoque, CT" had "introduced their new front sight."  And there was an add for it on page 85 of the same issue.

So at a minumum it's at least possible, by timeline, that the sight is original, and the catelog simply doesnt show that it was an option.  Heck, knowing Savage, and considering it was an inexpensive gun, they may have just run out of whatever the #20 is and started sticking that sight on for a run...and never noted the distinction.

Sentry44
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 10:43:16 AM by Sentry44 »

Garnett

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Re: Rear sight question
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2018, 04:43:13 PM »
Sentry, Thank you for this information!  Please forgive my tardiness in responding, but my son, Trey, and I went to the Louisville, KY, military collectors show early last week and I just got home.  First, please tell me the exact name of the book and the author, that you mention as I would like to obtain a copy.  I totally agree with you on your closing statement: "Heck, knowing Savage, and considering it was an inexpensive gun, they may have just run out of whatever the #20 is and started sticking that sight on for a run...and never noted the distinction."  Also, I should have double checked my catalogs before making my statement.  I do now recall seeing other similar sights in the catalogs for other models, and I have a 219 with a M340 hooded front sight that I believe came from the factory.  With that said, next time I will try to "think before speaking"!  :)  However, Jkrock did say his gun was prewar, so most likely it was added later and is an improvement from the original.   Thanks again for the info!

« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 04:49:54 PM by Garnett »

Jkrock

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Re: Rear sight question
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2018, 01:44:50 PM »
Thanks Sentry and Garrett.   Appreciate the info/history

I mentioned pre war as the barrel is marked made in Utica, so I was under the assumption that was pre war. based upon when they moved to MA.    Maybe I misunderstood.   

Garnett

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Re: Rear sight question
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2018, 02:33:35 PM »
No, you are most likely correct.  The plant moved to Chicopee Falls after 1946, and there is no way to really tell if a gun was made during 1946.  The only ones I know that were made during WWII at Utica were the .22 SHOT models for a U.S. Army Air Corp contract. 

Jkrock

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Re: Rear sight question
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2018, 07:29:17 AM »
Thanks again Garret.

One last question.  There is a plus symbol “+” onthe top right side of the receiver next to the barrel..  Is that just a proof mark, or does it denote anything specific that you are aware of?




Garnett

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Re: Rear sight question
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2018, 07:51:47 AM »
I have no idea what this "+" symbol means.  When Mr. Callahan was still providing information from factory records about the M219/220 guns, I asked him could I provide a list of symbols I had collected in my research, and get him to identify them, for a reasonable fee.  He answered in one word......"NO!"  He has since turned over all his records to the Savage Arms Museum.  I have seen this symbol on several guns, including at least two in my collection.

Sentry44

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Re: Rear sight question
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2018, 06:14:07 PM »
First, please tell me the exact name of the book and the author, that you mention as I would like to obtain a copy.

Garnett,

Sorry, I haven't come back to the site for a few days.  The book I'm talking about is "Old Gunsights & Rifle Scopes" by Nick Stroebel.

My copy was published in 2008, but there may be a newer edition.  This book is invaluable, because it is in 3 sections.  Sights, by maker.  Scopes, by maker.  And lastly, by gun brand, telling you what sight would have come on what model.

Gosh, I just looked for it on eBay and Amazon and they both have it listed only as cheap as $70+.  It must have gone out of print in the last couple years.  Yikes, that's expensive.  I think I paid like $12 for my copy a few years ago.   :o

Keep an eye out at shows and maybe you'll see a cheap copy floating around.

Sentry

Garnett

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Re: Rear sight question
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2018, 06:42:49 PM »
Many thanks for this information!  The name sounded familiar, so I checked my book case, and I have a copy of it!  I will read up on the Savage sights.  Thanks again for this info!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 06:51:12 PM by Garnett »

Sentry44

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Re: Rear sight question
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2018, 06:52:59 PM »
Your very welcome.  I'm enjoying your updated book (also have the original).

Now if I could only find a confounded .22 Hornet barrel for my gun I'd be a happy camper.  I see two guns out there on GB, but I just want the barrel.  Too many old guns in my safe already as it is.

I guess I should have jumped on the one that flew a couple months ago with no bluing on it... >:(

Took a very nice doe with my 30-30 barrel last fall...day after Thanksgiving.  We're still eating her!

Sentry