Author Topic: Lug profile in area around the extractor hook  (Read 285 times)

Sentry44

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Lug profile in area around the extractor hook
« on: November 30, 2019, 10:33:34 AM »
Garnett,

I JUST acquired a .22 Hornet after looking for many moons.  It's in almost unbelievable condition, probably because the extractor is broken and somebody silly just set the barrel aside for a few decades.  I have been wanting a Utica barrel, and this is only the 2nd of that type that I have seen that appears to be factory D&T'd on top of the receiver.  Can you confirm that they did this?  I mean, it certainly looks factory, and even has perfectly fitted plug screws, the bluing on which is perfectly uniform with the barrel.  I already had Weaver #12 and 30, and they went on perfectly.

OK, now to the main point of this post.  The profile of the cutout in the lug which houses the extractor hook.  I guess it's something I never really paid attention to, but I notice now that this 22 Hornet (and also a 20ga I own) both have what I would call a "whale's back" profile, with a sharp corner on one side, and a more gently sloping edge on the other.  This is in contrast to the uniform "half moon" arch on my 30-30, 16 and 12 gauge barrels.  THEN, having sen this, I go to your 2nd edition book, and I see a 3rd type there, where the corners are bevelled, rather than curved.

Any thoughts on this?  The timing of each?  I should say that ALL of my barrels are Utica, and all are flanged except one.  Not that it matters, but my frame is a 1st version Utica.

Bonus Point:  I also notice that ALL of my barrels have kind of a "nose" shaped cutout at the base of the FRONT of the lug, where it meets the barrel...with the exception of one, which is the 30-30.  It has a uniform slot.  Thoughts on this?

Sentry44

Garnett

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Re: Lug profile in area around the extractor hook
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2019, 07:56:53 PM »
Sentry, I am away from home and will return Monday.  I'll get back with you after i am settled down.  Best wishes, Garnett

Garnett

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Re: Lug profile in area around the extractor hook
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2019, 04:01:38 PM »
"I JUST acquired a .22 Hornet after looking for many moons.  It's in almost unbelievable condition, probably because the extractor is broken and somebody silly just set the barrel aside for a few decades.  I have been wanting a Utica barrel, and this is only the 2nd of that type that I have seen that appears to be factory D&T'd on top of the receiver.  Can you confirm that they did this?  I mean, it certainly looks factory, and even has perfectly fitted plug screws, the bluing on which is perfectly uniform with the barrel.  I already had Weaver #12 and 30, and they went on perfectly."   Quote from above.

I have not seen any 219 barrel D&T on top,that I thought was factory work.  But....I have never given the idea any thought either.  All the early barrels I have seen have the writing on the left hand side of the barrel over the chamber, so the barrels are blank on top.  Because of this, I don't know how, without a factory letter, this could be determined as factory work.  As I understand it, you purchased a barrel only, not a complete gun, is that correct?  Please correct me if I am wrong. So without a serial number on the frame, you can't get a factory letter to verify.  (Also, for various reasons, having a serial number, does not guarantee the factory letter will verify anything. (I am sure their historians is doing the best they can, but since Mr. Callahan retired, the information does not compare to Win., Colt, & S&W)  I have 2 barrels in my collection, and have seen less than a dozen rifle barrels, D&T on the side of the barrel that I feel confident in saying they are original factory work, as the normal left hand writing is moved to the top of the barrel so no holes will be drilled thru this writing.  I hope this will help some.  Best wishes, Garnett
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 04:04:29 PM by Garnett »

Garnett

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Re: Lug profile in area around the extractor hook
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2019, 04:11:48 PM »
Quote from above:OK, now to the main point of this post.  The profile of the cutout in the lug which houses the extractor hook.  I guess it's something I never really paid attention to, but I notice now that this 22 Hornet (and also a 20ga I own) both have what I would call a "whale's back" profile, with a sharp corner on one side, and a more gently sloping edge on the other.  This is in contrast to the uniform "half moon" arch on my 30-30, 16 and 12 gauge barrels.  THEN, having sen this, I go to your 2nd edition book, and I see a 3rd type there, where the corners are bevelled, rather than curved.   What page of my book is this picture on?

Any thoughts on this?  The timing of each?  I should say that ALL of my barrels are Utica, and all are flanged except one.  Not that it matters, but my frame is a 1st version Utica.

Bonus Point:  I also notice that ALL of my barrels have kind of a "nose" shaped cutout at the base of the FRONT of the lug, where it meets the barrel...with the exception of one, which is the 30-30.  It has a uniform slot.  Thoughts on this?

I am sorry, but while I understand your two questions, I cannot picture the parts in my mind.  Will you send pictures of both of these things and I will try to help with an answer.  I appreciate hearing from everyone with questions and will help as best as I can.  Best wishes, Garnett

Sentry44

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Re: Lug profile in area around the extractor hook
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2019, 08:05:03 PM »
I acquired just the barrel.  And yes, Savage isn't much use when it comes to factory letters.

You have pictures of ALL THREE milling profiles for the extractor hook area of the lug in your 2nd edition book.

1.  On page 91 are several views of the "whale's back" profile.
2.  On page 93 is an example of the "half moon" profile.
3.  On page 189 you can see the "angled" corner profile.

Now see below the other issue I asked about, the "nose" shaped cutout where the forward face of the lug meets the barrel.  The 22 Hornet, as well as 12, 16 and 20 gauge barrels I own all have this.



Contrast this with the following pic, which doesn't have that little area where the lug meets the barrel.  Only one of the barrels I own (30-30 WCF) has this.




ALL of my barrels are Utica era.


Chris
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 08:18:47 PM by Sentry44 »

Garnett

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Re: Lug profile in area around the extractor hook
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2019, 09:28:47 PM »
Chris, it took me a few minutes, but I see now there are 3 different profiles of the lug area that the ejector fits in.  I have no explanation as to why there is this difference other than cutting costs using a different final milling process.  You have a sharp eye!  I have never noticed that.  I am a little slow sometimes....until I started my book several years after my purchase of the First Model Utica .30-30, I had not even noticed the flanged/non flanged barrels! :)  Also, on the nose shaped cut out in front of the lug, I would guess this also is a time/money saving part of the milling process. I have been traveling and my guns are in "safe" storage and due to the Christmas season and other travels, I may not have them home until February of 2020.  I have made myself a note and will look at some of mine.  Many thanks for your input!

I do have two barrels (only) here at home.  One is an early pre "B" suffix model, 20 gauge flanged barrel, with the same profile as on page 91.  The other is the same in 12 gauge, non flanged.  Both of these barrels have the "nose" shaped cut out.

After giving it some more thought, I believe both differences are just to simplify/reduce cost of production.  I invite our readers to join in as to why there are these differences.   Best wishes, Garnett

Mike Armstrong

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Re: Lug profile in area around the extractor hook
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2019, 10:15:52 AM »
Savage was and is very careful about tweaking manufacturing details to maintain low cost.  Unlike many manufacturers, they were also careful to use the savings to keep consumer prices down, one reason I've always loved this company. 

In many cases they were able to make these minor changes without affecting either the function of the gun or requiring ONLY the new-style spare parts to replace the parts in the gun that originally had them.  I know this vexes collectors because you can get a "newer" gun with "older" parts.  This flexibility of interchangeable parts also allowed them to make saleable, excellent guns out of spare parts when the company REALLY needed sales, as in the Depression, and in the years right after WWII when demand for sporting arms was very high and the manufacturing capacity was still low after the war.

But I'm a shooter and a hunter, as were most of their customers, and I don't really care a diddle about the "purity" of the model as long as it works.  Some of my best Savages have been "parts guns" assembled at the Numrich/Gun Parts store in West Hurley New York from incomplete guns sold to them "for parts only" and later completed by them with either used parts they purchased from customers or new/old parts they bought when the Utica New York Savage plant closed.

This is why Savage collectors say "Savage--NEVER say 'never'" when confronted by a Savage that has anomalous features, like scope mount screw holes that "shouldn't be where they are"!

Mike Armstrong

Garnett

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Re: Lug profile in area around the extractor hook
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2019, 11:44:44 AM »
Mike, thanks for these comments.  I mention in my book that my gunsmith/machinist friend advised me early on, when preparing my guns for photos in my book, that some of the same "model" guns had different internal parts and parts from one would NOT interchange with another.  Happy New Year!

Sentry44

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Re: Lug profile in area around the extractor hook
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2019, 06:38:38 AM »
Mike,

I live only an hour or so from Numrich.  Have never visited, but have bought parts galore via their website.  I didnt know they assembled parts guns and sold them, just that they stripped lots of old guns for parts inventory.  But if you can do one, than you can do the other.  Frankly, there arent any other parts sources that can really compete, as far as I know.  Brownells might have springs and pins, but they dont carry all the rest of the internals for anything, far as I know.  And the little sites Im sometimes lead to via search are usually sold out of whatever it is they have listed.

eBay is hit or miss, but I keep tabs.  Still haven't found a Utica 410 barrel...

Chris
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 06:44:29 AM by Sentry44 »

Garnett

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Re: Lug profile in area around the extractor hook
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2019, 09:41:34 AM »
Chris, how can you live so close and not visit?  I would think it would be like being a child again in a toy store! :)